Christopher Kimball: This is Milk Street Radio from PRX and I'm your host Christopher Kimball. Today we're sharing the stories behind your favorite summer foods, the ones you're piling on your paper plate at the July 4 cookout. We're talking about grilled corn fly cake and the star of every backyard barbecue the hot dog.

The juices, the fat in it, with flavoring with salt flowing into the bun, with the other ingredients is is unparalleled.

CK: But before we get to the main course, we have to go back to hot dogs favorite companion mustard.

French’s Mustard ad: For a little boy, a circus is a clown and a hot dog. And almost since hotdogs began for three generations of little boys, French's mustard has paddled more hot dogs than any other mustard going. Let the seven lively spices in French's mustard add a little more fun to your meal on a bun.

CK: For more on the history of mustard, we're joined by Ken Zuckerman. He's the host of the annual worldwide mustard competition. Ken, welcome to Milk Street.

Ken Zuckerman: Thank you very much it real pleasure to be here today.

CK: So, what if you're sitting next to somebody at a ballpark, and they get a hot dog and they put ketchup on it?

KZ: Well, I view it as an educational opportunity, Chris, they're telling me they like something on their hot dog that is both sweet and a little vinegary. And I think that is a great opportunity for personal growth for them to also learn about mustard, which also can be sweet, is usually vinegary and then has many, many other properties that make it a in my opinion, a far superior condiment to put on a hot dog.

CK: So, I didn't understand this. The mustard seed doesn't intrinsically possess the flavors we associate with mustard.

KZ: Absolutely correct.

CK: Could you explain that and where the flavor does come from.

KZ: So, the mustard seed itself needs to be broken up to get into the inside, where there is an enzyme that is released. And that starts the conversion for what we associate as the hot property to the taste of mustard, the acidity and the temperature of the liquid that is introduced with mustard has more to do with our sensation of how hot a mustard is than anything else. The colder the water and the more neutral the pH the hotter the mustard will be. When you use a strong acid like vinegar, you get a slower but longer burn.

CK: So, you bottle up a jar of mustard. Does that maintain its heat forever or is there a shelf life to it?

KZ: It has a pretty steep curve. It's pretty potent for two to three months, generally, if refrigerated and unopened.

CK: So, so wait. So, if I have a jar of Dijon, like most people do in my fridge for a year or two, you're telling me that that ever every three or four months you should refresh your mustard even if kept in the fridge.

KZ: I believe that to be true.

CK: Okay, so I love history. And I was reading a little bit about mustard history, it obviously goes back many 1000s of years. So, the pope appoints a mustard maker. And then that became a phrase. You want to explain the phrase and what it meant?

KZ: Well, I believe the story you are referring to has to do with a relative of one of the dukes at the time who supposedly was not a very hard worker. And so, his father gave him the assignment of of being the official mustard baker of the region. So, in France, it is not a compliment to say to somebody that you are the mustard maker to either the king or the pope because it basically means well, you weren't really very good at anything else so we gave you this job, but it developed a lot of commerce in that region and they they take totally around Dijon they take mustard making very very seriously and it's gilded and although these days, Dijon mustard can be made anywhere. And actually, a very small percentage of it is made in Dijon itself.

CK: I'm surprised that the French are quite keen to have Appalachians that are regulated. Why is it possible to make Dijon outside of Dijon?

KZ: It's more a style than than anything else. So, if you look at it, I believe 80% Of all the mustard seed that is used to make mustard in Dijon is actually grown in Canada.

CK: So yellow mustard ballpark mustard. Everyone thinks as I did, I think that it had something to do with the color of the seed but actually has nothing to do with that right

KZ: It is 100% due to the turmeric root that is in it and the history of yellow mustard in America is directly tied to French's and the 1904 exposition where they basically married that yellow mustard to a hot dog. So, you also have German immigration happening heavily in America at that time as well. So, they took hot dog, married it to the yellow mustard served to the masses and that's when Americans really started to discover mustard on hotdogs.

CK: Let's talk about the medicinal uses of mustard. So, what were the basic categories, I guess, plasters of some kind because heat like Bengay.

KZ: Yep, it was it was the first vapor rub

CK: What were some other major uses of mustard.

KZ: Oh, if you go way back, they were using it for treating arthritis for dropsy, all sorts of diseases, a lot of respiratory for sure. And it goes back 1000s of years. In American history, though, it's pretty much around the Civil War period when it really took off. A great historical anecdote is when Lincoln was shot, the first doctor that got to him put a mustard plaster on his chest to try and keep him warm. And that field dressing was very, very big during the civil war in America.

CK: Yeah, when you're shot in the head, the first thing you should do is put a mustard plaster on someone's chest. (That is true). So you're on the board of the National Mustard Museum in Wisconsin, and the museum has this huge collection of memorabilia, vintage ads, antique mustard pots, 1000s of jars of actual mustard. So, the obvious question is, who decided the world really needed a mustard museum?

KZ: Well, there's a very long story. And I'll I'll try and keep it brief. But there was a gentleman by the name of Barry Levinson, and he was living in Wisconsin working as a lawyer. He was the Assistant Attorney General. And Barry supposedly was shopping in a supermarket very late at night. And as the story goes, he walked down the mustard aisle and the mustard spoke to him. And they said if you build it, they will come. And he took that as a sign. But after that he also happened to be arguing a case before the Supreme Court. And as he was walking out of his hotel, he passed a room service tray in the hall and there was a little one-ounce bottle of mustard. And he he took it and put it in his pocket. And he argued before the Supreme Court, he won the case. And when he got back to his hotel, he realized he had won it with the mustard in his pocket. And after that he was a changed man and decided to really start investigating and exploring the world of mustard and started collecting them. And the collection is now enormous.

CK: You know, so many religions have started with things talking to people. So, in this in this case, it was a one-ounce jar of mustard on a service tray. Do you get visitors from around the world coming to the mustard museum?

KZ: Yes, we have visitors from all over the world. And our collection is so immense, where we try and have a mustard from every country. I was actually at a gala a couple of weeks ago with Marcus Samuelsson who grew up in Ethiopia, raised in Sweden before coming to the US. And I said, chef, we don't have mustard from Ethiopia, in our collection, very surprisingly, what's gone on with mustard in your country. And he said mustard is huge in Ethiopia. So, I think when people think of the African continent, they probably don't normally associate it with mustard. But being that mustard is grown on every continent short of Antarctica. It's everywhere. And it's been everywhere for millennia,

CK: So, are you a member of sort of a small secret society of mustard lovers where you have, you know, lapel pins, and secret signs, is this do you have a group of really intense devotees, or is this just, you know, sort of the occasional weekend warrior?

KZ: I think more the latter unless you're in Wisconsin, and you have people that have been to the museum, often dozens of times where we have some pretty serious folks and the founder of the museum, Barry Levinson, if he were on he would sing you the official mustard museum song

Mustard Song: on our hot dogs on our bratwurst mustard is so cool. Never mayo, never ketchup there against the rules.

CK: Ken, it's been fun. It's been an education. Thank you so much.

KZ: Thank you for having me. It was a real pleasure.

Mustard Song: Fight, Poupon, you will fight and eat some lunch

CK: That was Ken Zuckerman. He's a board member of the National Mustard Museum, and he hosts the annual worldwide mustard competition. Now I'm joined by my co-host Sara Moulton to answer a few of your cooking questions. Sara is of course the star of Sara's Weeknight Meals on public television. Her latest book is Home Cooking 101. Sara July 4th is upon us. I don't know. do you look like a hot dog person? I bet you secretly like hotdogs.

Sara Moulton: I am so a hot dog person. As a matter of fact, that's the only thing I ate till I was nine years old really. My mother was tearing our hair out that and hot fudge sundaes. I love me a hot dog. We had this wonderful place around the corner where I grew up with some, you know, just Grill restaurant, I don't know Greek diner. And they had these specially rubbery hot dogs, which I really loved. They were bigger than usual. And they cut them down the middle lengthwise, and then put them on the grill so they really got a nice char. Oh, they were so good. That was my favorite thing. And my favorite topping.

CK: God help me

SM: Is ketchup. As a matter of fact, apparently, when I was a kid, there was a video we saw oh, I don't know how many years ago I was at my aunt and uncle’s, and they had a video of me drinking ketchup out of the bottle straight up.

CK: This is I'm trying to contain myself. Why would you want to put something sweet? I get it on the burger. But I don't get it on the hotdog.

SM: Well, you know, I told you my two favorite things were hot dogs and hot fudge sundae. So maybe the ketchup was sort of a gateway situation there. Moving on to the next (a gateway topping). Yeah, there you go. How about you? What's your sinful pleasure?

CK: I just had Saturday I just had two hot dogs for lunch. There's a little market near our place. And on Saturday, they do a barbecue outside. So, they grilled the bun which is critical. And all I had on it was raw chopped onions and a very spicy mustard. (Oh, well that sounds good). The hot dog if it’s good there's a snap to it. (Yes) it's got a real casing. It's not one of these casssing-less hotdogs, right? The juices come out into the bun into your mouth. You've got the raw bite of the onions and the spice of the mustard. So, you have the soft bun, the juices from the hotdog and the heat. The onion, mustard, it's like all four things are perfect. But ketchup for me would you know add anything to that.

SM: I think you know just because that used to be my favorite thing I'd still would put it on but what you just described sound absolutely delicious. I think the reason we like hotdogs since apparently, we share this is salt. There's so much salt.

CK: For me it was it's the hot juice inside. And it's that burst of flavor and heat and juice which I think is really it.

SM: I think we need to do a hot dog commercial, don't you?

CK: Well, you want to sing the song along with me Oscar Meyer. All right. Before we get into the song, let's take some calls.

SM: Welcome to Milk Street who's calling

Caller: Bob Bronstein from Vermont, just outside of Stowe in Morrisville,

SM: And how can we help you today?

Caller: Well, I've been having trouble with my frozen souffle. I have a grand mariner frozen souffle. And I was a chef for a long time, and we used to make it at the Four Oaks in Bellaire, Los Angeles. The chef was Peter Rowland's who was a Frédy Girardet apprentice. And what I'm finding when I'm making this display myself now it's getting icy, and I wonder what I'm doing wrong with my technique. It was a souffle which was made without a zabaione. It was just basically whipped cream. A French meringue with not very much sugar, grand mariner and reduced Mandarin juice and it tastes very good and it's nice as a room temperature souffle. But when I freeze it, it gets icy. it didn't used to get icy and I wonder what I'm doing wrong.

SM: It should work. Let me just explain for people who don't know what a frozen souffle is. It's not a souffle like a hot souffle it looks like a souffle because you put parchment around a souffle dish as sort of a collar on the top and then when you put the mixture in and freeze it and you take off the parchment it looks like the souffle rose. And there are two different ways to do it. One is with sort of just a meringue and puree just like you described in heavy cream. The other way is to do is Zabaione some kind of custard or curd. You know it's interesting because you said a French méringue which is not a cooked méringue. I wonder so it's not all that stable. And I just wonder if maybe it'd be better to do more of an Italian méringue.

Caller: You know, I tried to add Italian méringue and a Swiss méringue and it would still wasn't working and I wondered if the ratio of whipped cream to whites is wrong?

SM: That is a possibility. I mean cream will freeze nicely, particularly if whipped, but I also there's the base. Is there anything different about the base?

Caller: No, there's no base. There's not like a bechamel.

SM: It's just the juice reduced and the Grand Marnier.

Caller: Correct

SM: I don't know, I'm a little baffled. Chris, do you have any thoughts?

CK: Here the three issues, how much fat is there? How fast you freeze it, the faster you freeze something the smaller the ice crystals are going to be. I mean, the sweetness, the amount of sugar and the amount of liquor that also the more liquor better. I'll give you a secret that will solve the problem. I would add a cup. Well depends on the proportions you have here creme fraiche. I found when I make ice cream, for example, creme fraiche just is a miracle addition and it gives you the smoothest, most amazing ice cream. I think adding a cup or two of creme fraiche to this is going to solve your problem.

Caller: With stabilizing it?

CK: It's the fat and it's the nature of that fat and how it's stable. I don't know. But I've done it in every ice cream recipe I do now and creme fraiche is just transformative. I don't know how much to add, but at least a cup of creme fraiche to this and I think that'll solve your problem.

SM: And you still use some whipped cream as well.

CK: I mean, I don't see if you have whipped cream whipped egg whites. I don't know how much sugar is in the egg white

Caller: Well, let me tell you, my ratio. They asked for two quarts of unwhipped heavy cream. (Okay). And then one cup of unwhipped egg whites (right) and into the egg whites you only add 50 grams of sugar.

SM: That's not a lot.

CK: I don't Yeah, really? 50 gams. How much total sugars in the recipe?

Caller: One cup.

CK: One cup with two quarts of cream?

Caller: Yes.

CK: The more sugar the smoother the ice cream so you don't have a lot of sugar. You have fat, but you don't have egg yolks in here. So, the fat ratio is not super. And you have some liquor in here as well.

Caller: A half cup of Grand Marnier.

CK: Yeah, well, that's fair amount. There's not enough fat in here I think my answer is creme fraiche, Of course, my answer about anything frozen that dessert is creme fraiche. But no, but trust me, you really got to trust me on this one. Try it.

Caller: I'm happy to do this. I've made ice cream with creme fraiche, and it does add beautiful texture.

CK: You don't have enough sugar and you don't have enough fat in here. So that's why it's getting icy.

SM: Well, here's what's baffling though, Chris, is it worked fine at the restaurant. The same exact recipe so it is probably has something to do with your freezer and it not freezing fast enough.

CK: And maybe at the restaurant that you're right, it could freeze faster, but then he's going to have to adjust the recipe

Caller: maybe it's just you know, Operator error. Or maybe I'm just defective.

CK /SM: No, no, never admit that.

SM: No, never blame yourself. It's the ingredients. It's the equipment. Yeah. Bob, why don't you try the creme fraiche solution and get back to us and let us know.

CK: I'd love to hear about this because I am confident this will work. The easiest way to solve this is do a cook base, right? Yeah, whole eggs and the cream cook a base. Get it up to 175 80 degrees cool it down and then continue with the recipe like you would any ice cream recipe that'll solve the problem. Try the creme fraiche first, it's easier than making a cook base, right?

Caller: Yeah, making a zabaione it's fun but I just thinking the chemistry of zabaione it's interesting. (It is yeah). One of the things about working with the Fair Oaks is, you know, he was Frédy Girardet. He was his first apprentice in Switzerland. (nice) and their minimalist style was excellent. There's no don't add more than you need.

CK: Well, back in the 1980s I visited Frédy Girardet and interviewed him at his restaurants in Crissier and it was the best meal of my life. He was the most amazing cook as you write. Everything was simple. And perfect.

Caller: Simple and direct is good. It's like having a conversation. The less someone talks, and the more quicker they can get to the point, the more they know.

CK: It's evident that Sara and I know nothing because we we were not concise.

Caller: Thank you for your attention.

SM: Okay.

CK: Bob, take care. You're listening to Milk Street Radio. After the break frankfurters, rippers and red hots, get there do that's in just a moment. This is Milk Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. How did the humble hot dog achieve American stardom? Well, a catchy jingle didn't hurt

Oscar Mayer jingo: Oh, I’d love to be an Oscar Meyer wiener, that’s what I’d truly like to be. Because of I were an Oscar Meyer wiener, everyone would be in love with me.

CK: We're joined now by Bruce Craig culinary historian and veritable hot dog enthusiast. Bruce, welcome to Milk Street.

Bruce Kraig: Oh, thank you for having me.

CK: So, my first question is, when is a hot dog a hot dog and when is a hot dog a sausage because I get kind of confused. So, what's the demarcation between sausage and hot dog.

BK: So hot dog is a sausage, but it's of a particular kind, meaning it's made out of common nuded meat, which means very finely ground up meat seasoned, and other things put in it stuffed into a sausage or an artificial casing, and then smoked and cooked at the factory so it's really a an industrial product.

CK: You know, before we get into the details, what strikes me is, you know, sausages, there's a million kinds they've been around forever. People love them. But there's something about hot dog. (Yeah) just puts it in a totally different universe. It's fun. It's exciting. It's July 4, it's Nathan's. It's Coney Island, ballparks, it transforms a sausage into a celebrity.

BK: Yeah, I agree with you. That's what I've studied for a long time and written about the confluence between this industrial sausage, how they fit into American popular culture, and how they grew up together. So that's partly why baseball and hotdogs, all sorts of things that became popular to the mass American audience at the end of the 19th century, and in the threat of the 20th century. And that lasts till today.

CK: So, there are two theories about how it got quote, unquote, invented. Maybe neither of them is true. But one of them was about the guy selling sausage, hot sausages. So, he, he lent white gloves to his customers. Is that true? Is that Is that a real story?

BK: No. (I didn’t think so) So many things aren’t true exactly. That story has to do with the St. Louis World's Fair in 1903 04. And a sausage maker supposedly had a stand. And he sold German sausage. Just remember St. Louis was a really German city in 1900. And he gave them out with white gloves for people to eat. And the gloves got dirty, and he didn't have enough of them. So, he asked a neighbor of his to get him some buns. Because he thought that would work. Put it in the bun and thus the hotdog was born. This is again completely untrue. It's stupid. Because who would do such a thing? Who would give out white gloves?

CK: Well, there is something I just in preparation for this interview last weekend. I had two hot dogs for lunch on Saturday. And they were so good. There. I don't know what it is. But I think when you eat a sausage on a plate, it's not the same experience at all.

BK: No, it isn't. And sausages, I think we usually think of them as artisanal. And many of them are, but hotdogs not. Nevertheless, that same sensation you get in your mouth and in your taste buds have the juices, the fat in it, with flavoring with salt flowing into the bun, with the other ingredients is is unparalleled.

CK: So how did let's go back to the 19th century. How did they industrialize the production of hotdogs? You're talking about the first steam powered sausage meat chopper in 1868.

BK: As you probably know, much of our industrial food production comes from the Civil War and the industrialization of food to feed the Union armies. So, you need to have a lot of meat animals available and also the machinery to do it. The machinery goes back to the early 19th century, but the steam powered coal choppers they’re called came in the 1860s as the number of other things were industrialized as well canning, bottling, things like that. And so, meat manufacturers, the big guys Armour, Swift, the two most famous, were able to produce large amounts of meat carcasses, which they can ship out with the newly arising refrigeration cars. And so, when they disassembled animals, they did it in stages in a factory that went from top to bottom, in levels, and each part of the animal was done at a different level. When it came to the bottom, there were all the detritus namely animal intestines, and other things. And these were processed by mostly by women, by the way, and the leftover scraps of meat were ground up and made into sausages. As Swift himself said, we use every bit of a pig, but the squeal.

CK: Yes, yeah. So, the original hotdogs was sort of the seventh level of hell, (right) which actually is a pretty good description of the working conditions as well, by I mean, it was the worst, the worst of the worst, it was whatever was left over.

BK: Right, on the other hand, there were small makers, butchers all over the place, let's say like Oscar Meyer, which was not a big company, in 1883, when they were founded, but they were artisanal sausage makers, and they made the ancestor of hotdogs, which they called wieners, who or vienors, and they made it carefully, they did it and an artisanal way.

CK: So, you also write about Oscar Meyer, and you mentioned that they're brilliant marketers, that Wienermobile and the other stuff so what did they do to make marketing so important for them?

BK: Well, Oscar Meyer, they emphasized quality of their products from the very beginning in 1883. And then, during World War One, they invented a way to put a yellow band around their sausages. And this came from making cartridges for machine guns. And the yellow band became their symbol. And their advertising said look for the brand with the yellow band. And that that was not like the stuff you saw hanging from butcher shops. It differentiated them and they realized in the 1930s, that they should market to children, that children would be the drivers of a family's buying something. Then after the war, their marketing is heavily toward children. And with jingles which you could still sing. Right. I wish it were an Oscar Mayer wiener. I don't know why you'd say it because it's an ode to cannibalism in my opinion.

CK: Oh, come on now. It's a great song. I love that song.

BK: Yeah, I'm so good. You want to eat me. Yeah. But still, it's a great song. And you can sing, everybody knows it.

CK: So, what about different ways of cooking them. I know there's a place in Fairfield, Connecticut when I used to live there many years ago. And he likes him. Other people was famous for deep frying his hot dogs and then grilling them. So, what are some ways to prepare them that differentiate?

BK: Well, originally, as street food here, they were cooked in open fires. Those in Coney Island. Brighton Beach were really dangerous at one time they burned out Brighton Beach. (really?) Yeah, really. So, they passed regulations, so that they actually put on flat griddles or in hot water and I think that's where the hot water bathing really originates from as a safety measure.

CK: Years ago, I went to Chicago, and they put a garden of stuff on top of my hot dog. Yeah, peppers and tomatoes, all this other stuff, which was really alien to me coming from New England. So that's a particular style. Yeah, I know. There's chili on top and there's cheese that's the other thing. How did all that stuff develop? It's just different places just like different things, or was there some trend there?

BK: Yeah, first, let me go back to rippers. What you ate the deep-fried ones in Connecticut. Yeah, this a place in New Jersey called Ruts Hut. Everybody knows it. And of course, all hot dog people do it. And they deep fry their hot dogs in three different ways. And one has a deep-fried ripper, in which the skin just cracks open. Then there's a medium in which the skin breaks open even more and it's much Browner and then there's a cremator in which the hotdog is burnt. As for toppings, I've often said that hotdogs are kind of a platform for culture. And this depends on ethnicity and on what's available. If you look at a Chicago hot dog. What's on it is the dog on a bun and the bun. It has to be high gluten flour to hold up to steaming in Chicago with a bunch of steamed ideally. And the mustard is a German English, chopped onions, which are Pan European, but also German. It has relish on it. And the relish is probably Italian. It has sour pickles, which are German, Jewish, and it has on a tomato, and a sprinkling of celery salt in some cases or not. It's it's a mixture of ethnicity and the idea of more food for less money. And it's a real American experience. Hotdogs are American. I know they came from Germany, and they are sold all over the world. But it's really American. And the whole experience is American.

CK: Bruce, thank you so much. It's been it's been a real pleasure having you on.

BK: Well. thank you for having me. It's great to talk to you.

CK: That was historian Bruce Kraig. He's the author of Hot Dog a Global History and Man Bites Dog Hot Dog Culture in America. Every year the National Hot Dog and sausage Council receives applications from people looking to earn the title of hot dog ambassador. One of those people is John Champlin. He was named an ambassador in 2023 after driving across the country in search of hot dog perfection.

John Champlin: My Twitter feed Frank hot dog journey started in the summer of 2014. And since then, I've eaten over 700 hot dogs around the globe. One of my most memorable hot dogs started with an Instagram message on Christmas Eve from an account called Yeti Dog AK. It read Merry Christmas and we hope to serve you at Yeti Dog soon. Soon would be relative here as I was in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and Yeti Dog serves their delicious hot dogs and sausages in and around Anchorage, Alaska. After that first direct message, we stayed in contact online until chance would have it in the summer of 2022 members of my family moved to live in Anchorage and I went to visit them. It was finally time to get my Yeti Dog. Except the night I arrived, a terribly Alaskan incident happened. While returning home the reflective Yeti containment vehicle their food truck struck a moose in the road. Damage had to be assessed throwing off the schedule for the week that I was missing. A few days off the road and they were back and set up at a neighborhood party. The rain didn't deter the locals and the line at Yeti Dog was long. As I waited, Erica the owner glanced up briefly from the grill and we made eye contact. We exchanged as many pleasantries as old friends would and could give him the line of hungry folks behind us. Yeti Dog serves traditional Alaskan reindeer hotdogs as well as a variety of other sausages made with unique ingredients. My reindeer hot dog was slit down the middle than set atop a hot grill. The bun toasted not steamed which is correct in my opinion, my toppings, Coca Cola onions, cooked down and caramelized in soda for extra sweetness. My family took our standard hot dog selfie that went on Instagram, and we enjoyed our meal. What started as a DM on Instagram had formed a friendship across 1000s of miles. Why? Because of hot dogs and good people of course.

CK: That was hot dog Ambassador John Champlin you can follow his hot dog journey on Instagram at tour to Frank. You're listening to Milk Street Radio coming up the secret to perfect grilled corn. That's when we continue. Hi, I'm Christopher Kimball and this is Milk Street Radio. I'm joined now by Rose Hattabaugh to talk about the best way to spruce up your flag cake. Rose. How are you?

Rose Hattabaugh: Good, Chris, how are you?

CK: I'm good. You and I talk about baking all the time at Milk Street and July 4th is coming. And every year we get the horses out and we do a parade and there's always a flag cake. But I’m you know, I'm stuck. Because I've never found a frosting I love or it's easy to make, right? There’re butter creams. You know, okay. There's Italian Merengues or Swiss Merengues with sugar syrup and this, that and the other thing you had mentioned to me you'd come up with an easier frosting. It's not quite a butter cream. It's not really a méringue. Tell me about it. What is it?

RH: Yeah, it's well I also feel like you about butter creams. I think American buttercream is always to cloying and too sweet. And something like a Swiss meringue buttercream or a French meringue buttercream is kind of complicated. So, what I wanted to do was kind of blend the two so get something that had the kind of flavors of an American butter cream but then was really creamy and elegant like a French meringue buttercream. So, I came up with this 1-2-3 which is one cup of cream, two sticks of butter and three cups of powdered sugar. And it's all done in a mixer, and you end up with this really kind of luscious creamy butter cream that you could use for anything.

CK: So is that a heavy cream a common thing because that seems the thing that sticks out to me less than confectioner sugar but the heavy cream in here

RH: Well, it is a little bit uncommon. Usually, you would add to an American buttercream you might add two or three tablespoons, but I really wanted to incorporate a lot of heavy cream so that we kind of get that lush creamy texture and flavor. So, I was able to get an entire cup of heavy cream into this buttercream and I think you can really taste that and feel it in the silkiness of the buttercream.

CK: Now you said you use a whisk or a paddle a whisk to whisk it on a stand mixer. Is that right?

RH: Yes, the whisk attachment works the best for this. And if everything is at room temperature, it really works great. So, you'll start off by kind of whipping that butter until it's really creamy and white, then you add your sugar. And at that point, it almost looks like an American buttercream it's really creamy and it kind of looks spreadable, but it's really too sweet. So, then you drizzle in an entire cup of heavy cream, and it's actually going to curdle, and you'll think it's wrong. But if you keep beating for about 10 minutes, you're going to get this really luscious butter cream.

CK: So, patience is necessary here.

RH: You almost can't over beat it, the more you beat it, the fluffier it gets. It's great.

CK: So, I know recipes, especially these kinds of recipes, we say the eggs, you know, have the room temperature, the heavy cream has to be room temperature or the butter. So, this is a case where you really do need to have things at cool room temperature. And when we say cool room temperature, what temperature exactly do you mean?

RH: About 65 70 degrees is about what you're looking for.

CK: And what happens if the butters like 50 degrees, is that going to be a problem?

RH: It will take longer, you can still do it, but you're going to have to beat it much longer to kind of warm it up and get it to that temperature. So, if you start there, it'll be easier for everything to come together.

CK: So it's going to look a curdle. It's going to look curdled. It's going to look curdled and then it looks spectacular. All of a sudden, it's like a magic trick.

RH: It's like a magic trick. You have to try it. It's amazing.

CK: So, 1-2-3 vanilla frosting it's a cup of heavy cream, two sticks of butter, right and three cups of confectioner sugar. Is that the recipe?

RH: Yes, well also using salted butter because that was another thing is to kind of tamp down that really cloying sweetness usually get salted butter really worked great for that too.

CK: Now the last thing is, you know some méringue frostings don't last that long. Will this last a couple of days if you have leftovers?

RH: Oh, it holds up great. You can even freeze it. (Really?0 Yeah, I've done it many times. defrost it in the refrigerator. And if you bring it to room temperature, you can just whisk it back up again. It's really a very forgiving frosting

CK: Thanks Rose. 1-2-3 vanilla frosting great on your flag cake, great on your birthday cake and sort of our go to frosting at Milk Street. Thank you.

RH: You're welcome. Happy Fourth of July. You can get the recipe for 123 Frosting at Milk Street Radio.com

CK: I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to Milk Street Radio right now my co-host Sara Moulton and I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions.

SM: Welcome to Milk Street who is calling?

Caller: Yeah, my name is Todd,

SM: Where are you calling from?

Caller: I am lucky to live on the beautiful coast of Maine.

SM: How can we help you today?

Caller: The raging thing up here on the coast of Maine lately is lobster mac and cheese. And if you've never had it, and if you scoff at the idea, I think you are making a huge mistake. It's absolutely delicious. And I'm curious if you could give me some hints on the best way to prepare it. I have not made it myself yet. The restaurants all around carry it, I'm thinking that it would be best to boil the macaroni and cheese in the leftover boiled lobster water. But beyond that, I can't think of any tricks. So, any information would be greatly appreciated.

SM: Well, you know, I'm going to be honest, I've never had lobster mac & cheese. So the mac and cheese does taste of the lobster aside from just the chunks of lobster in there.

Caller: Yeah, it does cause people using pretty mild cheese, of course,

SM: I think the best way to cook lobsters to steam it. And then you know, set the lobster side, let it cool. Take it out of the shell and cut it into the chunks that you want. And save the shells and then take the shells and make a stock out of it. You can sauté them a little more flavor out of them. Break them up a bit before you do sauté them. I would add a little bit of white wine, obviously or water simmer it, you know till you get some nice flavor doesn't have to be for hours. And then use that liquid plus whatever milk or cream that you normally use. And then add your cheese what cheese you would like to use. That's not too strong. I guess it wouldn't be sharp cheddar. For me. It's always sharp cheddar, but you're saying you want it to take a backseat and then at the very end do you do a baked one? Or do you just do a stovetop one?

Caller: I do a stovetop version. Yeah.

SM: So, then you can just chop up the lobster and throw it in at the very end. And heat it then so it doesn't get overcooked Yes. Oh, Chris is looking very discouraged

CK: I'm sorry, guys. I love mac and cheese. And I like lobster. But I think putting lobster in mac and cheese. I just can't I can't go there.

SM: So, we've lost him.

CK: I can't do it.

Caller: I have heard that spoken more than once. 100 probably 100 times. And then when they go to a restaurant and try it

CK: Well, I'm going to have to let the two of you carry the banner for this.

Caller: I will mention that I live in a place where I can literally eat lobster almost every day. But after a while you just go yeah, I’ll try something different, I've made lobster pizza. Lobster dip is incredible with some sour cream and some gruyere cheese heated is just amazing.

CK: You make a fair point because lobster used to be a junk fish or shellfish. And I guess for you it kind of is because it's not that expensive. Yeah, fair point. But for the rest of us who eat it twice a year.

SM: I hope my suggestions were a little helpful

Caller: Yes, they were I'm going to try it.

CK: God bless you. You’re fearless. Your intrepid.

SM: And Todd, do get back to us and let us know how it goes. And I won't let Chris talk at that time

Caller: Tomorrow I'm going to have lobster breakfast sandwich.

SM: Ooh, yum

Caller: So, we'll go from there. Alright, well, thank you so much

CK: Okay. Thank you, Todd

CK: This is Milk Street Radio. If you're burnt out of the grill, give us a call anytime the number 855-426-9843 that's 855-426-9843 or just email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com. Welcome to Milk Street who's calling?

Caller: Hi, this is Brian from Craic Sauce in Lowell, Massachusetts.

CK: How can we help you?

Caller: We're a Craic hotdog company and last year we were growing some Aji peppers like aji ____,aji Dulce’s we also had some sugar rush cream and aji peach. And we're just like amazed how much they taste like the fruit and really kind of had this sweet fruit for flavor. So, we decided to make a hot sauce that kind of went all out in that fruit direction. We were thinking something that could pair well with vanilla ice cream, desserts or cocktails, which sounds crazy. But we got some local peaches and plums and black cherries to pair well with these Aji peppers, and part of our cooking procedures that we have to pasteurize the hot sauces and bring them up to 180 degrees. So, we added the fruit towards the end. But getting towards the latter half of the bottling, the sauce began to really foam up. We've had that before but like not to this level and kind of the point where there was like air bubbles and made it challenging to fill. So, we were kind of wondering what is that science going on like why is the foaming happening and if there were any techniques that we can do to kind of reduce the foaming or just better deal with it.

CK: Well, I used to make a lot of jams and stuff in a copper pot, at four cups at a time, I found small batches worked well and there was a lot of farming with that. And also, when you boil maple sap in the spring, there's a ton of foaming going on as it reduces down. Some people say that if you chop up the fruit and macerate overnight first, that might reduce the foaming. I've never tested that. But I think it has to do with the nature of the sugar in the fruit maybe. You said the foaming gets worse as you are bottling. In other words, it starts out not being so bad and gets worse.

Caller: I think it was the peaches. They were just like so sugary at the end of the season. Like we keep it at 180 degrees and maybe 30 minutes later, I felt like there was more foam, the longer it was going.

CK: The downside of having the foaming is what? Does it change the complexity, the texture, the color of the final product, or just makes it hard to bottle?

Caller: It was more so the hard to bottle piece. Yeah, it wasn't as kind of liquid it was more foamy and had some air in it.

CK: Can you let it just sit at that temperature for a while and the foam subsides over time?

Caller: We can definitely try that out. Yeah,

CK: I would let it sit before you bottle and then try that. That would be my guess but Sara

SM: Well as you know, I’m not a canner or preserver so the only thing I'm wondering is, can you just skim that foam off? Are you saying the problem is when you finally get it into bottles, that's when the foam appears.

Caller: It was definitely towards the top and then towards the end of the batch. I think skimming the foam would be something that is to keep an eye on too as well.

CK: How much are you making the time by the way?

Caller: We're making about like 20 gallons.

SM: Yeah, sounds yummy.

CK: Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, I said you should never put hot sauce and ice cream until we changed our mind with this one but yeah, definitely accents the fruits.

CK: What's the name of this sort of fruity hot sauce?

Caller: We call it Aji punch.

CK: It comes in little, tiny hot sauce bottles or they're bigger?

Caller: We do them in five-ounce bottles or like the traditional style. Yep.

CK: Good for you. Well, that sounds delicious.

SM: Yeah, you know and aji chili's makes so much sense. My brother used to describe habanero’s, which has tons and tons of heat, but it's like a cross between a chili and a mango because those Scotch bonnets in habanero’s are so fruity. I agree with you. But I _____ have a similar flavor profile, but with none of our very, very little of the chili heat. So how smart to combine it with actual fruit.

CK: And it's great for cocktails.

SM: Well, I like the idea of putting it on ice cream, too. Okay, I really do. Because if you've got something that's too spicy, the best thing to do is add sugar and dairy to it. And if you got something that's too sweet, the best thing to do is to add chilies to it. So yeah, they do a happy dance. Very smart.

Caller: Totally. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate the advice

CK: Our pleasure. And good luck with that sounds great.

Caller: Yeah, thank you.

CK: This is Milk Street Radio. Now let's head over to the grill with Kenji Lopez alt. Kenji, how are you?

Kenji Lopez Alt: I'm doing pretty good. How are you, Chris?

CK: Good. July 4th is upon us once again. And what are you cooking?

KLA: Well, I hope people will be grilling some corn and I had a I had a technique and a recipe that I thought might might help people do that a little better.

CK: I just have to ask, are we going to be brining corn?

KLA: No, we're not which I find brining actually does not work very well so in the tests I've done I find that when you brine corn, it actually does the opposite of what brining does for meat where you know, Brining can make your chicken or your pork juicy or it actually makes your corn shrivel up a little more. It makes it drier. It robs it of moisture. And so I don't brine.

CK: It's also it's also annoying, I'm sorry, but it's like it is sure I mean really do we have to brine our corn, please no.

KLA: What I actually do do though, is I take the corn and I cook it in a separate pan on the side of my grill. So, I sort of graze it in a in a buttery liquid and then I finish it off on the grill. Like the most basic level you can just put some butter and honey in there. And then put your your shucked corn cobs in there. And I'll stick it on the cooler side of the grill. So, while I'm you know, making my hamburgers, my hotdogs or whatever, the corn is in their sort of slowly simmering in this buttery liquid and you can turn it every once in a while. And so, by the time you're done with whatever it is you're grilling, and you're ready to finish off your corn, you just transfer it out of that pan, the liquid has reduced down into a sort of nice glaze that seeps really in between all the kernels and keeps them nice and juicy. And then you can throw them over the hot part of the grill, they char up in just a matter of moments. And so you get like a really nice juicy corn that is seasoned all the way throughout, you know that that liquid has sort of penetrated throughout all the kernels. You know, the other thing I really liked about this method is it's it's really adaptable so you can add whatever flavors you want you know so I like to add say a pinch of Korean chili flakes and then maybe finish it off with some chopped up cilantro. You could add like a dash of soy sauce in there. You know any sort of flavors that you think of some harissa paste would be great. Some pesto would be great, whatever flavors you want you kind of add them in there and they'll seep into that corn so that when you when you eat it you get something that's a little bit more than just plain corn. Not that there's anything wrong with just plain corn of course.

CK: Yeah, I have to say that my method is fresh picked of possible three minutes and sort of simmering water right because I just want nothing but corn, but I like this method because I find the grilling corn often gets dried out by the time you get a charred

KLA: So yeah, and this one also like it keeps the corn sort of ready until you're ready for it you know, so it doesn't just sit their kind of drying out like a cannon on the grill.

CK: But I do find corn I don't know why. It's the one thing everybody has an extreme opinion about. I right neighbors in Vermont come by like one minute only you can only cook for one minute. You got to do this. You got to do that and everybody's going to get irritated and huffy. It's sort of like how to cook your turkey right? It's like turkey and corn those two things

KLA: Corn and steak yeah.

CK: Well, fortunately, you and I have made a career out of arguing about cooking. (Right) No brining, butter and just a little honey and finish it off on the grill. That sounds that sounds like a really good idea. Kenji thank you and very happy fourth.

KLA: Yeah, same to you.

CK: That was Kenji Lopez Alt. He's a food columnist for the New York Times, also author of The Wok, Recipes and Techniques. He also co-hosts the podcast, The Recipe with Kenji and Deb. That's it for this week's show. Please don't forget, you can find over 250 episodes of Milk Street Radio, at our website Milk Street Radio.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find out more about Milk Street at 177 Milk Street.com. There you can become a member and get 1000s of recipes, access our online cooking classes and get free shipping on all orders from the Milk Street store. can also learn about our latest book Milk Street 365 the All-Purpose Cookbook for Every Day of the Year. Please check us out on Facebook that Christopher Kimball's Milk Street on Instagram at 177 Milk Street. We'll be back next week. Have a happy July 4th and thanks as always for listening.

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sensabaugh, senior editor Melissa Allison, producer Sarah Clapp, Assistant Producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debby Paddock. Additional editing by Sidney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison and Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Theme music by Toubab Krewe, additional music by George Brandl Egloff, Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX.