0:05 – 0:26 (CPK) Hi. I'm Christopher Kimball and this is a special episode of Milk Street Radio in collaboration with a sponsor Las Vegas. Earlier this month we hosted an evening in Las Vegas exploring some of its best culinary secrets and stories. Journalist Al Mancini took us on his ultimate food and drinking tour, including one legendary cocktail at a notorious dive bar.

0:27 – 0:40 (Al Mancini) It's supposed to be bad; it's supposed to be inexpensive. For a while they did it frozen for a while they served it in porcelain toilets. If you go home and you say I had asked you to the Double Down, any degenerate friend of yours will know that you did Vegas, right?

0:41- 0:47 (CPK) Las Vegas Chef Jamie Tran also join to answer our live audiences cooking questions.

0:48 – 0:56 (Jamie Tran) I do like adding lemongrass and lime, lime leaves and some citrus and stuff like that. But at the end, I always still put some pepper and then on the grill and it's __

0:57 – 1:29 (CPK) I’m going to ask you a question. Do you always do sound effects when you cook because you’re really good at sound effects. That's all coming up later in the show. But first, it's my interview with Sue Kim Chung. She's an archivist and curator of Las Vegas history at the UNLV Libraries also author of Las Vegas Than and Now. Su Kim studies the history of various restaurants starting in 1940s. With less than 20,000 people lived here Su Kim Chung. So, let's start going through the list. So the chuck wagon.

1:30 – 2:10 (Su Kim Chung) Yes. The El Rancho Vegas chuck wagon that started the buffet concept in Las Vegas, had a little bit of everything. And I talked to a couple people that were children at the time. And so, they remember being so overwhelmed by the sight of the chuck wagon buffet and all the foods and, and one of them said her family had been sort of modest means and there was shrimp was the thing they couldn't afford to eat at home. So, shrimp at the chuckwagon was amazing. And another person said that her eyes were just like saucers because of all the food. And if you notice in the photographs that they they actually didn't house flashcards in those days. I'm curious. I'd like to see

2:11 – 2:23 (CPK) That’s the first thing I noticed. (Yes). So, let's move on to Caesar's Palace. So, the bacchanal so you you mentioned something about a live sacrifice. (Yes). So, could you tell me about that because that sounded pretty interesting.

2:24 – (S K Chung) I know that there's probably a lot of longtime residents here in the audience. And we're talking about the bacchanal gourmet room as it existed when Caesars Palace opened in 1966. So, we know that Jay Sarno was the man who built Caesars Palace. He was a fascinating man, interesting man who wanted to build a casino empire based on the Roman emperor. So, everything was Italian cypresses, marble statuary, things like that. So, he wanted to have this restaurant that would emulate a dinner that you were served in the days of the Roman emperors. So, it was called bacchanal named after of course, the Roman god Bacchus of wine and it was all about service. But so, he really when he was in the planning stages for the bacchanal, he came up with this really kind of gruesome idea where he had researched the Roman banquets being they started with a live animal sacrifice. So, there was a pool in the center of the bacchanal and so he wanted to fill the pool with live Parana. And then he wanted to have a suckling piglet carried out by like waiters dressed as centurions, and they would throw the piglet into the pool of Parana. That

3:36 – 3:41 (CPK) That is the single worst idea I've ever heard. And needless to say, somebody suggested this was not a great

3:42 – 3:48 (SK Chung) Yeah, of course, probably the health department probably didn't think much of it, and also probably would send people off their food pretty quick so

3:49 – 3:51 (CPK) But he had a lot of other good ideas. Yeah.

3:52 – 4:27 (S K Chung) Yes and the thing about the bacchanal what it was known for it was really not just a meal, it was an experience, and everything was about the service. And the waitresses were called goddesses, they wore small togas, and they had their hair done professionally and their makeup done professionally. And they served wine in these B___, the Roman B___ bag and they would carry it over their shoulder, and they would pour it into your glass from quite a distance and not spill a drop from everything I've heard. And then they would also peel grapes and they would serve them it was it was really an experience for men because they would peel (needless to say) they would peel grapes and serve grapes to the men because they would peel

4:32 – 4:33 (CPK) and wasn’t there something about shoulder massages?

4:34 – 4:44 (S K Chung) Yes, the shoulder massage was after the the eight course meal, after which time you might need an actual stretcher or a wheelchair to kind of get you out after eight courses, things like that

4:45 –4:46 (CPK) How many years did they do this?

4:47 – 5:28 (S K Chung) They opened in 1966. And they closed in 2000. (So, it was a long time). So, and the menu was partially in Latin, and they had quotes from all the Roman emperors on one side and they had relishes on shaved Ice, hot hors d'oeuvres, sweet breads and mustard sauce prosciutto with melon smoked salmon with capers. They had a seafood course with an ice sculpture. And then there was a finger bowl with lemons and rose petals. And then the main course was one of 12 entrees that you could choose from it could be veal cordon bleu, could be veal al la Oscar, broiled lobster tail stuffed with king crab, spring rack of lamb roast duck, Cornish game hen chicken biryani.

5:29 – 5:39 (CPK) So I did also I read you said that the R___ brothers opened up Nero’s Nook at Caesar's Palace. Everyone heard of the R__ brothers. I never heard of them. But they were sort of a vaudeville act pretty much like the Marx Brothers

5:40 - 6:12 (S K Chung) They actually, at the Bacchanal room, they actually had a magician who was kind of ancient at that time, he was in his 70s or 80s. And he would I don't mean that. I don't mean to say I don't mean to say ancient (I might take that personally) I don't mean to say that. He would perform tricks while you were waiting for your your main entree. So so you can imagine and then I left out the pack that there would be a flaming dessert that was poured over ice cream and fruit and so again, they joke that you know, they would have a stretcher to help you out. So so by that time, you really did need the shoulder massage

6:13 – 6:14 (CPK) So people did come to Vegas for the food, right?

6:15 - (S K Chung) Oh, yes.

6:16 – 6:20 (CPK) Alpine Village. ((oh yes) Oh, they're finally okay.

6:21 – (S K Chung) So I you know; everybody remembers the Alpine Village with such love was such affection. It was here for almost 50 years opened in 1950. Closed in 1997 was four different locations in Las Vegas. But just such a place. You'd had a dining room and then in the basement had the rough cellar, and it was the bar and you could eat peanuts in there and you were encouraged to throw them on the floor. And there were German drinking songs in there. And the waitresses wore lederhosen

6:53 – 7:06 (CPK) And I have lederhosen and I just want you to know and I didn't wear it tonight I know with my bow tie but it's becoming actually lederhosen it's now becoming very popular again. At least they tell me that's true

7:07 – 7:13 (S K Chung) so and they were famous for it and everybody is going to remember this they're going to famous for the cottage cheese dip, right? Everybody's going to remember this and have

7:14 – 7:15 (CPK) and I have the recipe right here (yes) It does have absinthe (??) in it, which I which I think is great actually.

7:16 – 7:59 (S K Chung) And the spices were actually in a little jar or a little container that you could buy in their gift shop and it was served just like in a Mexican restaurant, they would give you chips and salsa at the Alpine Village, they would give you the cottage cheese dip and something like a Triscuit cracker. And they were also famous, they had a sweet little trolley, like a tram that ran around the ceiling. And they would decorate it for the holidays, and they put cotton on it when it was wintertime to simulate wintertime in the Alps and Sauerbraten and the Hasenpfeffer, the rabbit people really enjoyed the the schnitzel, veal or chicken. That was a very popular dish there.

8:00 – 8:18 (CPK) If it's done well, it is absolutely fabulous. It's nice that we don't have just a bunch of 20 somethings here. I just like to note, because you all have very good memories of this. So, I have one last question. So out of all of that history, is there one thing that really stands out as being unique or something we'll never see again, in Las Vegas?

8:19 – 8:32 (S K Chung) Well, I unfortunately was never able to go to the bacchanal but if I could go back in time, I think I would love to go to the bacchanal and just experience it because everybody said it was not a meal. It was an experience.

8:33 – 8:34 (CPK) Su Kim, thank you so much.

8:35 – 8:36 (S K Chung) Thank you. You’re welcome

8:37 – 9:24 (CPK) That was Su Kim Chung, author of Las Vegas Then and Now. You're listening to a special episode of Milk Street Radio sponsored by Las Vegas. Our next guest is food journalist Al Mancini, host of the podcast Food and Loathing. He also runs the Vegas restaurant guide Neon Feast for our evening in Las Vegas. Al put together his ultimate food and drinking tour. Here's Al Mancini. So, of all the places you've been, if you if you were to say to me, there's one thing you've got to go to, this one experience you have to go to, and we'll get the dive bars maybe should be a dive bar. But what would that place be?

9:25 – 10:30 (Al Mancini) I would say right now if you want to know where Las Vegas is is a dining city today, you have to visit the Artisans. Right? Right now, it is the most exciting off strip neighborhood. You're going to go to the strip when you come to Las Vegas, you should go to the strip that four miles of Las Vegas Boulevard has everything any foodie could possibly want with extra bells and whistles. But some of us maybe want something that's a little more organic that doesn't have all the bells and whistles built in real chefs who are not celebrities yet but are trying to make their mark so this the story in Las Vegas for the past 15 years has been off strip developing little pockets of that. And we have Chinatown, which is great. We have the Southwest which Jamie Tran was a pioneer and who's going to be out here shortly. We have the Carson Avenue just off Fremont east. These are all amazing neighborhoods. But the Arts district is one that you can walk from place to place. Las Vegas is not known as a walking city. And if you tried to walk around today with 110 degrees, you probably know why.

10:31 – 10:58 (CPK) First of all, let me say yesterday, I checked the weather here. And this is how dumb I am. The reason I checked the weather was, well maybe it'll be raining. Like maybe I should bring an umbrella. And the other thing I thought as well might be a little chilly at night. So, I'll bring a sweater said like 107 105 109 I said okay. And then someone said to me just a couple hours ago said good thing you weren't here last week. And I said why, they said it was really hot

10:59 – 12:33 (AM) Yeah, exactly. So, the arts district really started percolating about five years ago. Great bars like Velveteen Rabbit one down there, which is also a woman run business which I love to support those. But then James Trees went in there with Esther's Kitchen and yeah, suddenly, it was a foodie destination. Then Good Pie opened up then Main Street Provisions. I mean, these guys know it. Soul Belly Barbecue, which is a celebrity chef Bruce Coleman, who had never done barbecue before until he started hanging out with Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters and they develop these recipes together. He moved from LA to Vegas to try out that concept. He did it in the arts district. His place is like a honky tonk. There’re bands on you could have good beer, good whiskey barbecue, and you just hang out, you can ,you could literally spend 12 hours in the arts district walk from place to place. And you don't just have to do food and beverage. There’re great theaters down there. There’re great stores down their great art galleries. It is a community that reminds look, I came from New York City, and I was an East Village guy. I had friends who were West Village guys, you walked around your neighborhood. That's what you do in the arts district. You hang out in that neighborhood; you can stay there all day. Now again, if you are a serious foodie, of course, everything you need is on the Strip. But please go out and see what happens when people are doing things on a shoestring budget when they're trying really hard without that casino money behind them. Because sometimes you see those little bursts of creativity. And then the biggest sign that the arts district is here is Wolfgang Puck opened a place there within the past year. So, you know it's arrived, you know, it's a fantastic

12:34 -12:39 (CPK) Is that a good sign or or is that is like now it's going to be gentrified and be upscale.

12:40 – 13:18 (AM) I mean, you could say that I don't think any of the business owners are worried about it. They want the attention. They liked the attention. The neighborhood needs the attention. No place is too packed, there's room for growth, and Chef Puck giving his kind of stamp of approval. That means a lot. Now, of course, we don't only want corporate restaurants down there. We have plenty of them on the strip, but Wolfgang Puck helped build this town there would not be a dining scene in Las Vegas, if he hadn’t opened Spago when he did. So, for him being that kind of pioneer to come into this neighborhood and see the potential there. I don't think there's any conflict at all. You guys are all from the arts district. They seem to agree

13:19 – 13:34 (CPK) I remember I first met him in the early 80s at Spago and he was bringing out some food and he had a smoked duck pizza one of the iconic dishes? (Yeah) I said, this is never going to work. (Well, my old friend) another brilliant comment from yours truly.

13:35 – 13;37 (AM) My old friend Robert Leach used to claim, and I say it's true because Wolfgang and his people have confirmed it that he was the one that said you know this salmon pizza is good, but you should put some caviar on it. And yeah, the rest is history.

13:38 – 14:19 (CPK) So you mentioned East Village. I lived in the village in 1971 for three days. The first night two guys tried to break in and they said we just want a glass of water trying to push the door in. And the next night. I came out in the morning and all the ignition wires been ripped out of my car. I left Sunday afternoon. But but but then, you know, years later people said the East Village is so cool. And I went it's really not very cool at all. They said no it is and it became this amazing place.

14:20 – 15:38 (AM) Yeah. And that's how we have seen the arts district that right now is really the center point for creativity. But please visit Chinatown visit the Southwest visit Carson Ave Off of Fremont East, you should if you're doing a three-day trip in Las Vegas, you should spend at least you know one afternoon or one evening in an off-strip area. If you're really serious about food because the strip will blow your mind nonstop. It'll give you every Instagram-able moment you could ever imagine you've run out of space on your camera. But when you want to get back to this idea of what do chefs do because off strip has boomed because all of the celebrity chefs who came here Starting in 1998 with Bellagio, they all brought their best and their brightest to run the restaurants. When those people got ready to be rotated back out of town to another Michael Mina restaurant to another Wolfgang Puck restaurant, whatever it is, they said no, I really liked Las Vegas, I'd really like to build something of my own here. And the rents were a lot more manageable than trying to do that in New York City on your own. So, they stayed they built their families here. And they took all of this knowledge they have from these great celebrity chef genius chefs and went out to our neighborhoods, and they said I'm going to build something of my own I'm going to put my own name on it and you really owe it to yourself to explore those restaurants

15:39 – 15:40 (CPK) Okay, best table in Vegas?

15:41 – 16:32 (AM) Best table in Vegas you know there's there's this old Vegas tradition that you want the best table in the house. I was just up at Eiffel Tower there's a corner table there are all kinds of there's Jose Andre’s single table restaurant, but the best table in Las Vegas and if you really want to go home with memories that nobody else is going to have the Garden Table at Bellagio. In the Bellagio Conservatory, which is one of the absolute best free attractions in Las Vegas they carved out this little single table. Michael Mina does dinners there. Sadelle’s does brunches there. You can book either a brunch or a dinner. There's only I think two seatings for each every day. And if you ever watched, you know, Ocean's 11 and wanted to feel like Julia Roberts acting like she ran the place. Book the Garden Table you will have a story that nobody else has of your friends no matter how frequently they come to Vegas.

16:33 – 16:35 (CPK) I've always wanted to feel like I was Julia Roberts.

16:36 – (AM) I strive for it every day

16:38 – 16:51 (CPK) Next time I get the urge I'll go there. Okay, we were talking about dive bars. So, let's talk about dive bars. You said one of the things you look for is how awful the men's room is. (Yeah) And that's really your your sliding scale.

16:52 – 17:32 (AM) If you want to dive bar yes, it has to be an awful, awful men’s room that people have done bad things in and you can tell because usually there’s evidence but like I tended bar at CBGB in New York City. I mean, you want to talk about they blew up the toilet about once a month with M80’s like I'm not exaggerating just people would go in. So yeah, so I moved to Las Vegas. I brought a bunch of my friends from the East Coast out to help me move. My buddy said I heard about the Double Down saloon you have to try this place. I walked into the Double Down saloon three days into Vegas, and I said, okay, I can live in this town because it made me feel so at home. I mean, they sell puke insurance. The signature drink is Ass juice I mean, it is it is

17:33 – 17:43 (CPK) I was going to ask you, I have to ask. What does Ass juice taste like? I can't believe I'm sitting here on this podcast asking this question. But anyway

17:44 – 18:25 (AM) It tastes a bit too sweet and red. To be honest. It's the rumor is and if you talk to Pete Moss, he's told the story so many times. I don't know how much it's changed. But he's been telling it to me for 25 years. So, I've heard it a lot. And I think it was originally all the cheap stuff that they couldn't get rid of it was in the bottom of the bottles, they come in, they mix it up, throw some red Kool Aid or something in with it. Over the years, it became so popular that I think they now have a recipe, but he does not reveal what it is. But it's supposed to be bad. It's supposed to be inexpensive. For a while they did it frozen for a while they served it in porcelain toilets. If you go home and you say I had Ass juice in the Double Down any degenerate friend of yours will know that you did Vegas, right.

18:26 – 18:33 (CPK) Okay. we're going to distill this whole evening down to drinking Ass juice at that bar. (Yes) I just want to be clear.

18:34 – (AM) I you know if I can just

18:36 – (CPK) I went to Las Vegas, and all I did was

18:37 – 18:51 (AM) It is great. And if all I'm remembered for is the guy that recommended Ass juice, man, my work here is done. But but that's really just one. I mean, I would send you to the Hard Hat Lounge, which has probably the best hamburgers in Las Vegas right now. The Hard Hat

18:52 – 18:53 (CPK) Why are they so good?

18:54 – 19:43 (AM) You know what? They're just the perfect smash burger everybody's doing a smash burger now. And they're doing it right. But that bar really amazing. I think it dates back to the 60s. It was just bought by a professional musician, a local guy Frank Sidoris he tours with Slash he tours with Wolfgang Van Halen. So, he just gave it its first cleaning and about 50 years and it still feels really really seedy. So, you wonder what it was like, like, what the 50 years of filth that they took off of it was like, but that's a fantastic bar. I would send you to Dinos to do karaoke. Dinos is great, such a dive bar that they say they've been repeatedly offered Bar Rescue and they're like, We don't want to be rescued. We are what we are, you know, like, we'd love it like this and everybody else does. So yeah, we just have some really great dive bars in Las Vegas.

19:44 – (CPK) Tiki bars?

19:45 – 21:10 (AM) Tiki bars. Look, everybody knows the one and only the gold standard for Tiki bars in the United States, the Golden Tiki on Spring Mountain ___ that as if Walt Disney designed a tiki bar with a dirty sense of humor. Animatronic birds that curse at you. Phallic art collection where the most of it's on display in I think the ladies’ room but it's scattered everywhere. But it's also really great for drinks. Adam Rainsholds is the bartender, they're one of the best bartenders and mixologists in Las Vegas, one of the foremost experts in America on Tiki culture, so you're going to get great stuff there. They also and we could talk about this if you want, they shrink the heads of celebrity guests. So, if you want to go in there, maybe they'll give you a shrunken head. I mean, they did it for me. So, but now it's a lot of fun. So, Tiki bars are great. You can go to Frankie's which is a great Tiki Bar on Charleston by the same guy who did the Double Down saloon, so it has a dive bar feel. There's a bar and I know that they'll tell me it's not technically Tiki but Stray Pirate in the arts district. It's a pirate themed bar. More importantly, like a dog pirate themed bar, which is a weird thing, but that one's a lot of fun. And the casinos are even getting in on it. I mean, we have the Golden Monkey in Resorts World which is a cool bar. What who else? Oh Cassi Diamaura even has a tiki bar in back. Right. So yeah, we do Tiki well in Las Vegas.

21:11 – 21:15 (CPK) And what is left of the old Vegas, you can still experience.

21:16 – 22:25 (AM) Yeah, this town tears down its history pretty quickly. But we still have some great old Vegas experiences. Whether you go to Piara's, which was founded in the 80s whether you go to Golden Steer, which was founded in the 50s Circus Circus Steakhouse, which was founded in the 60s, these are all trips back through time. They're all fantastic. Honestly, if you go to Circus Circus and Golden Steer and do a side by side, because these are the throwback steakhouses, they all make you feel like, well, if you go to Golden Steer, they can see you in the booths that was reserved for Sinatra, or the booth that was reserved for Sammy Davis Jr. So that's awesome. But even in Circus Circus, you feel as if you're hanging out with a rat pack when you're in that place. So, I mean, those are three that I really love. Very close to here, Chicago Joe's, we actually on my app, we actually have a list of best old old Vegas experiences on neon feast. Chicago Joe's is one I'm just getting ready to add. This is a house that was built in the 30s you don't go for the food, but the food's okay. It's red sauce food, but it looks like you're dining in some old mafia guy’s house. And it's just so much fun to go there. So yeah, we still have old Vegas.

22:26 – 22:40 (CPK) So from some guy from Boston or Vermont, what is my takeaway here besides the men's room at the dive bars, but what's the consummate essence of Las Vegas in terms of the bars or the restaurants? What's the thing you're never going to see in New York or San Francisco or LA?

22:41 – 24:16 (Am) Well, you'll never see the concentration of quality restaurants on one four-mile strip of one road anywhere on the planet. I defy anybody to find me that. I mean, the Las Vegas strip is a self- contained city in itself, and it will hit you with Wow factors, like you have never seen before. Chefs in Vegas are constantly being challenged to put more over the top ridiculousness into everything. So there is like you know, it's just it'll blow your mind sensory overload all of that. But what I'd ask you to do is to take your time and really pay attention and see the sense of community see the sense of hospitality. See the sense that the people who come here to work in food and beverage, they want to make a career out of it, they care about each other, they lend a hand to each other's restaurants, strip restaurants loaning equipment to off strip restaurants, when they lose something and all kinds of just really knowing that a rising tide raises all ships. That's what Las Vegas is all about. And hospitality just giving you real hospitality. And then keep in mind that if you do visit the arts district, if you do visit places like Sparrow and Wolfen in Chinatown, you know, all these fantastic restaurants that you are seeing the very, very first sprouts of what is going to be an amazing citywide scene. We're only 10 years old with off strip dining, taking off and being taken seriously. We have a long way to go. But anybody that's ever followed a band or anybody that's ever-followed chefs, you know, the most exciting part is when you're in that most creative period. That's where we are right now. It's a golden age.

24:17 – (CPK) Well, I'm glad you don't like Las Vegas very much, thank you so much. Thanks for your time. That was Al Mancini. His restaurant guide is called Neon Feast. This is a special episode of Milk Street Radio sponsored by Las Vegas. My last guest Jami Tran was a contestant on Top Chef and is the chef owner of a beloved off strip restaurant called the Black Sheep. For the event I spoke with Jamie about her career, and then we answer cooking questions that our live audience sent in before the show. Here's Jami Tran Hi.

25:06 – 25:22 (Jami Tran) Hi Vegas I got something for Chris to welcome him to Vegas. A little sake. (Oh, okay) Instead of water I like to get lit, so let's do it. Cheers. Thank you, Chris for having us.

25:23 – 25:48 (CPK) Thank you for making my evening even more enjoyable. This is going to be the best part of my evening now. Wow. The suns over the yard now. So, I have lots of questions for you but I'm going to start with the obvious one. Your nickname (the lick queen). Slimy

25:49 – 26:19 (JT) Oh slimy yeah. Yes. (So where does that come from?) Slimy is from my brother. He calls me slimy. I don't know why he calls me slimy. I'm not slimy. I'm clean. I am good hygiene. Come to the restaurant. I have an A. But he calls me I don't know. Like, I have six brothers, two sisters. So, it's like a lot of boys a lot of like, you know, testosterone like they like to pick on us. And I pick back and like it's like, I don't know, it's like a boy house.

26:20 – 26:33 (CPK) So you told me your restaurant is the kitchen is 300 square feet? (Yes) Not 3300 (it’s the size of your bathroom? (Yeah) And so how how do you deal with such a small, commercial kitchen?

26:34 – 27:26 (JT) You have to be efficient. So, we have like a small little grill, a salamander kind of have a six-working burner, but not the other one goes. What's wrong with you. And then the oven is only used to warm up like the plate where because we don't use the oven at all during service that's only doing prep and then double basket fryer. You just have to be very, I guess, strategic about how you execute the menu. Because there's only two people who can fit in the back of the kitchen and one ____person that does the cold stuff and dessert. So for us, it's basically planning and being smart about the menu and just having a vision and making sure that the staff understands because we don't have like a heat mat to warm things and make sure that it goes out. It's just like that my servers know I got ding ding ding get your asses in there

27:27 – (CPK) Now we know

27:31 – 27:51 (JT) No, (um) it's been a while I've been in the kitchen since I was like 14. So, it's just, I guess it. The humor comes from my family. I have a big family. But the humor kept us going. And I think like, in my past life, I was a comedian. So that like even through tough times, humor always gets us through.

27:52 – 28:09 (CPK) So you okay, so you said you didn't want to be like your father, you wanted to be a lawyer. You wanted to be a CPA, (I did) iand lots of other things. You know, like, like an eye doctor, etc. And your father was a cook a chef? (Yes) So, you ended up being like your father.

28:10 – 28:40 (JT) I did like, boost your destiny. I did. Um, no, I watched him in the kitchen grinding, he will go to work at like, leave the house at 9:30am. I come home at like 11 o'clock pm. So, he worked all day. We didn't see him all like the whole time. I didn't want to be like him. I didn't want to work like him. He was very, like, military because he was from the Vietnam War and all that stuff. So, he was like, strict on this. I was like, no, I don't want to be like him. And then I was like, I'm going to be a doctor. And then it didn't happen guys. I was going to be a surgeon

28:41 – (CPK) Is that a New York accent? I think that was a New York accent.

28:44 – 29:34 (JT) I I changed my whole career. And I ended up going to San Francisco State switched my major went to business school. And then I was like, if I want to own a restaurant, he didn't know the business side. And then so I did that. And then I was like, like, okay, let's go to Vegas because its party scene I was like, alright, I love clubbing. I'm Asian. So, I was like, boom boom. I told my professor I'm going to open my own restaurant. build my own culture in Vegas in 10 years. She said good luck on that. And then I moved to Vegas party doo doo doo. And then seven years later, I opened a restaurant with a partner right there. John, he's hiding, and the rest is history. I'm here with Chris taking sake bombs and bombs ____ but some sake.

29:35 – 29:45 (CPK) So the typical question actually I do have one question here that from the audience. What advice would you give somebody who wants to start a restaurant is the advice like just don't

29:46 – 30:43 (JT) No, I would use to say that but also like if you want to do what you want to do and like just good for you. But also understand the business side of it. Don't just open a restaurant and just know one side of it know every single aspect of your restaurant. Put your foot into everybody's shoes, like know what the busser feels know what the barback feels, know what the bartender feels, know what your server feel, know what your cook feels your dishwasher, you're like a manager know what everybody feels. If you realize working every position you have more empathy towards everyone and then you can manage in a different way I believe. I'm not saying you feel sorry for everybody who comes in and they're like hungover and the chef, I can't do this. No, no, get out of here but at the same time, but just have like, just no every position and I just, that's my thing. Like, go for it. You only grow from your failures, and you only grow from your experience.

30:44 – (CPK) Okay, now we're going to take some questions. Were there. oh little cards, look at this. (Wow) So we'll both answer

30: 55 – 30:57 (JT) I'll take history for 200

30:58 – 31:00 (CPK) Yes. Okay, what do you cook for yourself after work?

31:01 – 31:13 (JT) I'm not going to lie. I eat sandwiches. Turkey sandwich with American cheese and mayo. Down J___.

31:14 – 32:02 (CPK) I like to marinate my chicken. Is there a favorite chicken marinade that’s your go to? Marinades, I had a 40 year career arguing against marinating yogurt does work with chicken. I admit that's true. But marinating for a it’s a long, long story basically does not get into the food. Salt does salt brining does work. But all those other flavors just never get in. So serving a sauce with chicken after cook it's great. Or using a yogurt marinade, but at least I don't know what you think. But I've, I've tested this over and over again. We just did this on TV last week where we took a blue dye in a brine and put that in put chicken in it and the blue dies in about an eighth of an inch. It just doesn't really get inside. So, a very thin steak like a skirt steak. Yeah, but anything that's thick is just not going to work.

32:03 – 32:40 (JT) I agree. Chris. (What? I’m here to argue). I’m just joking. I'm here to argue too. You know, I love to marinate. If I did chicken, I do lemongrass chicken because I'm the Vietnamese. So, I do put the fish sauce. I think the fish sauce is like strong fermented. (I love fish sauce) Yeah, I felt like if you sit it overnight, and just like it pounds to flavor into it. The salt. I feel like it's salty. So, it has that penetrating flavor to it. I do like adding lemongrass and like lime leaves and some citrus and stuff like that. But that then at the end I always still put some salt and pepper and put on the grill and it's as good.

32:41 – 32:46 (CPK) I’m going to ask you a question. Do you always do sound effects when you cook? Because you're really good at sound effects

32:47 – 32:49 (JT) I think that's how I talk.

32:50 – 32:57 (CPK) So someone asked you obviously about any signature dishes at your restaurant? Do any of them have a story behind them or?

32:58 – 33:53 (JT) Yeah, there are some dishes like so I when I opened the restaurant, I kind of miss home I miss like California I miss my mom and miss my dad, I miss just the foods and like I didn't want to do like the whole strip standard. You need to cook this, this this this and it has to hit the food costs that ended up at a d da da da and I was like no, I'm done with a da da da da .so I wanted like certain things like that. I can't say it don't laugh. But it's like a dish that I love is in the pure ____ is like good. I can't say R’s. But ___ rolls. That's one thing I got like you can't ____That's one thing that my mom taught me like instead of egg rolls, we use like springroll wraps and then just putting the pork and the like the pork, the shrimp and stuff like that into the mix and you're just frying it. This is lighter, I feel it's not as heavy. And there's something that I have on the menu from day one. And it's continued to be here on my menu from day one just because I like a lot of my menus inspired by mom and my mom and dad.

33:54 – 34:00 (CPK) Here's one I'd really like to have date nights in the kitchen with my husband and work together to cook dinner.

34:01 – 34:02 (JT) Oh, something romantic, okay. And I honestly cook whatever that's fun, like interactive. I honestly think something quick, something like fun. I always think like finger food and stuff like that. And something like you know, like, I always think pasta and stuff they can do like that lady and tramp thing

34:20 – 35:12 (CPK) That was a great scene. And there was singing the song in the background. That was very romantic (we’re about to break into song right now). It was amore right. (Yeah) Right. Anyway, I would say I have a long history with this. I find that two people trying to cook share a recipe together. I mean, that's d-i-v-o-r-c like that just doesn't work. Like don't do that. Please God don't do that. Like like you can have different people doing different recipes. Yeah, that's okay. The most romantic thing is to have your significant other come home. You've done all the work. You've done the cooking. You give them a cocktail or glass of wine. Yeah, they get to sit and relax. And I'm happy to be the one who cooks but I think the surprise meal is really romantic.

35:13 – 35:21 (JT)I think the surprise meal but they better do the dishes afterwards. I'm like, Yeah, I do the perk. I'm going to go on bed now. Boop. I’ll, wait for you.

35:22 – 35:43 (CPK) I can just tell you based on a lot of experience, that doesn't work too well. My kid is moving into their first apartment. What are the must haves (Ramen noodles)? I would say the right knife and a knife sharpener but that’s something else again. Okay, eggplant, should you salt it ahead of time before you cook it?

35:44 – 35:51 (JT) No, I don't salt mine ahead of time. I feel like you need like some oil and stuff like that but salt when you're you're, you're cooking it

35:52 – (CPK) and you don’t press it or let it drain,

35:55 – 36:02 (JT) No you just heat up your pan put some oil and then just enough oil but not so much oil and then just let it do its thing.

36:03 – (CPK) I salt it okay

36:05 – (JT) I don’t, we can disagree

36:06 – 36:14 (CPK) What about compromise? (We can compromise) What is the most underused overlook spice? underused

36:15 – 36:27 (JT) Under used, overlooked spice? I don't know. I love spice. I don't know like I like it spicy. Like cayenne. I like cayenne. Like people think it's too spicy, but I like cayenne.

36:28 – 37:03 (CPK) I think za’atar is the world's best. Yeah. Which is phenomenal. By the way. Most za’atar you buy is complete garbage. So, I visited Reem Cassis. She wrote The Palestinian Table, visited her family a couple years ago and her mother who now lives in Jerusalem, sent me a bag of real za’atar like she handpicked the wild za’atar leaves. And then you add the sesame seeds to it and that was yeah, that was unbelievable. We'll take two more questions but live from the audience. Yeah.

37:04 – 37:11 (Audience Ques) Hi, ___. How do you feel about the growth in the Southwest where you are right now? Because you were out there before anybody else?

37:12 – 37:15 (CPK) Let's just so the question is how do you feel about the growth in the southwest of the city?

37:16 – 38:00 (JT) I feel like it's growing big time. But when we went out there, me and my partner John, when we went out there, it was not really much it was more like a lot of chain stuff. Since we open there's a bunch of things. So, the growth has been tremendous. It's been great. I kind of love the scene of Vegas right now. And the only way we all can just like honestly thrive is because of the community like Las Vegas has been a blessing. The support from the community just going through COVID going through a lot of things. We all just showed each other support and that's we thrive in that, and I don't know like I just I am blessed and thankful because it it kind of popped me off. And now without Vegas. I don't know where I will be to tell you truth.

38:01 – (CPK) Great answer. You wouldn't be on this stage drinking sake.

38:07 – (JT) I would, but Al Manzini. He's been number one supporter

38:11 – (CPK) You’ve been drinking with Al Manzini

38:13 – 38:29 (JT) I’ll be drinking with Al Manzini, Al’s been like the day one been my like ride or die? He came out and he supported us. We were like nothing and then now we're like, you know that Drake song and then No, no, I don't know the song though. Now I'm here.

38:30 – (CPK) We're going to have to go on tour. I'm sorry. This is like we're going to have to do a comedy act. Forget all this serious cooking nonsense. One last question. Anybody? Yes

38:41 – 38:45 (Audience Ques) What are your staple ingredients in your home kitchen that allow you to pull up dishes at the drop of a hat.

38:46 – 38:52 (CPK) What are the staple ingredients in our home kitchens that allow us to pull off dishes at the drop of a hat

38:53 – 38:56 (JT) Chris, I want to know what's in your kitchen, Chris?

38:57 – 40:37 (CPK) Well, the problem is since I started Milk Street eight years ago, it's a very different group of ingredients. Fish sauce, really good fish sauce, obviously really good soy sauce, (JT: that's the homie right there) You know Hoisin sauce, spice mixes I make you can make your own spice mix at home like they're doing all throughout the Middle East. You know, really good pastas that are bronze die cut pastas. So they release a lot of starch in the water. So calcio pepe those kinds of things you can just throw together very quickly. I think you can really we did a whole book about cooking out of your pantry. And I think you know it doesn't (A) you can get all this stuff now overnight, right? Or almost overnight. When I started out in cooking, you'd have to go to Chinatown you have to go to the different stores and and to learning how to use some of those ingredients just makes everything so much simpler. For example, instead of doing a simple vinaigrette you know, you might use lime juice and soy sauce and you know, toasted sesame oil and a little bit of sugar. And that's just another base you have so if you think about having base combinations, you know, you do a rice bowl, you do a noodle bowl, you do a green bowl, but something on top of it. It's just having those things sitting there. I mean, Mastering the Art of French Cooking, there are no spices in it to speak of. There are no chilies in it at all, I think. And then no fermented sauces in it. And that was a style of cooking where you took simple ingredients with time, temperature and technique to get to good food. Most of the places in the world start with big flavors. When you start with big flavors. It's easier to get to something flavorful quickly. So, I think cooking out of your pantry is really important.

40:38 (JT) Look at Chris look at him

40;39 – (CPK) For a little guy from Vermont. Now he's cooking with __he’s come such a long way. Thank you so much for coming. It's been a great pleasure. Thanks guys. Thank you, Jamie. Great. That was Jamie Tran chef owner of The Black Sheep. That's it for today. Thanks for listening to this special episode of Milk Street Radio. And now I'd like to tell you about our sponsor and collaborator on this special episode. Las Vegas. Vegas is of course an ambitious entertainment town with a hunger to stretch the imagination. And of course that applies to food as well. Vegas chefs love to take culinary moonshots from smoking cigar dessert to pork belly al Pastore to foie gras cotton candy to sushi dim sum caviar parfait and much much more. Venture beyond the strip to discover hidden gems across the Las Vegas Valley from world renowned Thai cooking to French tasting menus. Or you can dine at top restaurants from the world's very best chefs such as Jose Andres, Bobby Flay, Giada De Laurentis and Nobu Matsuhisa. With Las Vegas restaurants. You can go back in time discover a barbershop speakeasy experiment with all new cocktails or enjoy serious food without taking yourself all too seriously. To discover the amazing dining experiences that Las Vegas has to offer. Please go to visit las vegas.com/culinary One more time. That's visit las vegas.com/culinary.